Vitamin B12 deficiency is commonly misdiagnosed.

[Richard Lee]

Thanks for your reply.

Yesterday I took a 5mg (Jarrow) divided in two doses for the first time and had mind- bending burning pain everywhere like no other. I did not sleep a wink.
This morning I did not want to stop the meB12 so I gave myself an injection of 1 ml and I am not experiencing as much burn as yesterday. I was wondering if you took Jarrow 5mg full dose right off or did you build up to 5 mg in divided doses? Did you start the country life along with the Jarrow B12 or bring that in later? Sorry for all the questions, but you seem to have had success and with some of the symptoms that I recognize on myself.
Thanks again.

Hi Sail

Your symptoms sound to me like the classic startup-effects described by Freddd and others, and my guess is that you would benefit from following Freddd's slow or fast titration protocol described in
http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?t=62327

The first time I took a 5mg Jarrow, 3mg Country Life, and a 800mcg Metafolin, was last November, and I took them all at once. The only effect was to make me feel slightly energized. I subsequently tried them with the basic cofactors, to little effect. In that respect our reactions have been quite different.

You mentioned that you were suffering from mercury toxicity after 16 years in dentistry. How was it measured? I've wondered if that might be a factor in my own B12-deficit, since I've got a number of mercury fillings, a couple of gold fillings (which makes it worse by galvanization), and tend to chew hard and possibly even grind - all of which increase the leaching of mercury.

According to the December 1995 issue of Heavy Metal Bulletin:

The transport of vitamin B12 to the brain can be disturbed or interrupted by heavy metals such as mercury... It is possible that the mercury .. oxidises the cobalt atom in the B12. Due to its molecular size, vitamin B12 normally has difficulties in crossing the blood-brain barrier, and it is possible that denaturation makes this even more difficult.

Rarely detectable through normal testing procedures, such as blood serum or methyl malonic acid, B12 deficiencies in the brain and Central Nervous System can be determined by checking "increased homocysteine in liquor cerebrospinalis"...

The reason why high doses of B12 (intramuscular injections in a specific form of methylcobalamin) are recommended is that, in the presence of heavy metals in the blood-brain barrier, most of the vitamin B12 seems to be consumed (for reasons we don't yet know) and, depending on the level of heavy metal exposure, part of the supplemented B12 will most probably also be consumed in this way until the surplus can be used in the brain where it is needed... Only certain brands of methylcobalamin B12 are used because some contain preservatives which can cause problems in sensitive patients... A certain protocol should be followed which includes the addition of folic acid, and vitamin B6.

Their recommendations are strikingly consistent with Freddd's pragmatic protocol.

[doveman]

I wasn't reckoning on being able to get the Jarrows lozenges in the UK for £11.09! How do you manage that? Are you not hit with at least an £8 VAT collection fee by the Post Office? I know that I can buy Jarrows in the UK but the cheapest I have ever found for the bottle of 60 is around £20, and some places are almost double that,

Andrea

It's true that there's extra charges ordering from Iherb. I always use the DHL International shipping option which is $12 (sometimes $8 on offer). If the total (including shipping) is below £18 there's no duty to pay and DHL don't charge the £8 that the Post Office do. So say it comes to £18, it's still only £0.30/day and even at £20 it's only £0.33/day, which is still cheaper than the spray, which at £23.98 (including shipping) costs £0.53/day.

I tend to always order in bulk though and on a £80 order (including shipping) I tend to pay roughly £17 Duty/VAT, which I think works out to about £2.80/bottle, bringing the total per bottle to around £14, which is obviously more economical than ordering one bottle and paying $12 shipping for it.

As I said, my Mum can't use the lozenges, so if Iherb can't get a decent spray then I'll have to think about ordering from that place you linked to, so that I can at least see if she'll benefit from sublingual B12.

[doveman]

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.

I wish it was just my legs that burns...but unfortunately it is my entire body.
I saw the post about the new B's and wonder how much niacin there is in that one as I took my first B Jarrow today and had a niacin flush for about 1/2 hour. A bit unsettling ( more burning ) but knew why it was happening.

You might want to try the Thorne Research, B-Complex #12 instead, as that doesn't contain Niacin, only Niacinamide which apparently is less likely to cause this flushing.

[AndreaM]

I tend to always order in bulk though and on a £80 order (including shipping) I tend to pay roughly £17 Duty/VAT, which I think works out to about £2.80/bottle, bringing the total per bottle to around £14

Okay, that's fair enough. I suppose it will depend on whether people want to order in bulk.

if Iherb can't get a decent spray then I'll have to think about ordering from that place you linked to, so that I can at least see if she'll benefit from sublingual B12.

I hope whatever way you decide to go about it that you can get an effective product for your Mum. Let us know the outcome,

Andrea

[madanthony]

Here are cases of two who had the same symptoms as all of you, yet were copper deficient (like me), and it is copper deficiency which I am so grateful to the hair analysis lab to have found. At 45 (while I still made a good amount of estrogen, which helps you absorb it), I was not copper deficient. At 51, I was. Copper deficiency caused gait disturbance for me. That has waned. I still, however, have a bit of fine motor difficulty doing things like grabbing the zipper to close my purse...my mother also had that problem and we put one of those keychain rings on it to help her grab it. (My difficulty is so slight that no one can detect it but me, and luckily typing is not really a fine motor skill -- it's very forgiving). Copper is required for the methionine synthase enzyme, so behaves exactly like a B12 deficiency. Copper deficiency leads to aneurism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2712481/

[madanthony]

Hi April,

Thanks for the link. I find this all quite complicated. I notice Fredd says that he reckons you would have to take a large amount of Methyl B12 before methylation of the mercury would take place.

I was also taking sublingual Methyl along with the Hydroxo jabs and I really can't say whether they helped or not, since I was already on a lot of Hydroxo. However, I did also try metafolin and it did absolutely nothing for me, even when taken at the same 5mg daily dose.

Since I became unwell after the 'flu jab, I stopped the Methyl subs and I don't appear to be any worse.

I cannot make up my mind whether to go through the difficult process of having 17 fillings safely removed and replaced or just take the step to have all my teeth removed and be fitted with dentures. I am 50 years old and, although my teeth are still in quite good order, I know that it would likely not be that long before I was having to think about dentures anyway.

Is there anyone here who has gone through the process of having their fillings removed (and subsequent chelation) and did it make any difference to your wellbeing?

I just thought I'd add another comment about this -- why would you think that dentures solves this problem? Dentures require DENSURE CREAM and guess what --! Many people have been poisoned by denture cream, which contains zinc, to become therefore copper deficient (zinc prevents copper absorption). Here's a lawsuit:
http://denturecreamlawsuit.com/

BTW, why should you expect to lose your teeth at 50? I plan to have mine forever!
Mad

[madanthony]

I realize now that I went into this treatment pretty blind. My doctor was concerned about my B12 levels but didn't find them astonishingly low so recommended taking the higher doses. I had (accidentally) picked up the sublingual B12 because I have problems swallowing pills. Well, I had been having bad anxiety, body pain, palpitations and fatigue prior to that. I thought everything was just getting worse. What was funny was about a week after I started taking them, I went for another blood test to continue looking for the cause of all these funny problems. My cortisol was through the roof and my doctor got me an appointment with an internist the next day for more testing on that. When I found my cortisol was high, I stopped my birth-control pills and within a few days, things were considerably better.

About another 10 days later, the palpitations were coming back and the crazy body pain. I had been looking around information on websites on B12 and wasn't finding anything too negative. I decided to ramp up my dose to about 5000 mcg. On the second day of doing that, I figured out that the B12 was causing this round of symptoms. At first, I wasn't sure if I should stop until I found this thread. I hadn't put together that the effects I was having from the B12 were startup effects. Last night, I went to get all the easily available vitamins and potassium (which wasn't that easy to find here). I'm giving them a try this morning. I ordered my stuff from iHerb which should come soon (thanks to a US P.O. Box). I will see about the B Complex stuff when I head to the city Friday.

It helps to know that so many others have had similar trials and tribulations. I guess you can't put premium gas into a jalopy all at once. I have seen changes in my headaches, digestive function, general pain and energy levels, but not right after I take a dose. I look forward to what the future may bring so I can stop taxing my caring and supportive partner.

Just a comment -- know others seem to think palpitations are caused by B12 shortage, but they are a symptom of hyperthyroid and that should be checked out and not ignored or presumed to be "startup symptoms". Palpitations are serious and can koll you -- I would get a thyroid panel (not just TSH which is valueless as it can take years for TSH to reflect the actual FREE T3 status). A full thyroid panel includes FREE T3, FREE T4, REVERSE T3, and two thyroid antibody tests. Look at a site like www.stopthethyroidmadness.com or www.ithyroid.com for info. You can be hyperthyroid and gain weight and be tired. According to ithyroid.com, weight gain/looss depends on potassium status in hyperthyroid conditions. (Don't rule out thyroid problems based on weight).
Mad

[madanthony]

Thanks for indulging my questions.

I am very intrigued at how my symptoms are changing, even in the last few days. Even after the first day of just the vitamins, I feel a difference in how I am tolerating the startup effects. I can't pinpoint what it is, but the worst of the palpitations are gone. I am starting to breathe easier. My trembling is down but still present and the pins and needles are going all through my body now. The burning flush running through my face and arms is down. I am very fatigued and have little concentration but am getting through about 3-4 hours of work a day. Also, I feel less anxious these days which is good because I have to give my final Master's research presentation in 3 weeks.

How do I know when my body is ready for a higher dose of mb12? I am taking 1000mcg right now. I am waiting for my iHerb shipment which includes the metafolin and adb12 and it should come in next week.

Presumably someone answered this (I can't - no startup symptoms here), but I wanted to emphasize omega-3...especially as you are looking at finals (a stressful period). First, you need some omega-3 to effect healing as it helps you to actually get the nutrients you are taking into your cells (through ion channels in the cell mambrance made of omega-3). But beyond that, if you take 9g/day of omega-3, it will depress NF-KB (head inflammatory cytokine) and that will stop inflammation associated with problems you may have and also it will make your brain feel peaceful -- the best way to be when under stress and taking a test!). It make ME fell like I have rubbed Vicks Vaporub on my brain -- refreshing, peaceful, and anti-anxiety. It even helps sooth a high blood pressure headache...IMHO whatever brain problems you are experiencing, it can help sooth them markedly.
Mad

[madanthony]

Presumably someone answered this (I can't - no startup symptoms here), but I wanted to emphasize omega-3...especially as you are looking at finals (a stressful period). First, you need some omega-3 to effect healing as it helps you to actually get the nutrients you are taking into your cells (through ion channels in the cell MEMBRANE made of omega-3). But beyond that, if you take 9g/day of omega-3, it will depress NF-KB (head inflammatory cytokine) and that will stop inflammation associated with problems you may have and also it will make your brain feel peaceful -- the best way to be when under stress and taking a test!). It make ME fell like I have rubbed Vicks Vaporub on my brain -- refreshing, peaceful, and anti-anxiety. It even helps sooth a high blood pressure headache...IMHO whatever brain problems you are experiencing, it can help sooth them markedly.
Mad

Pleasee excuse typos -- I just don't have time to proofread in general.

[madanthony]

It's very difficult to say Nas as I have reason to suspect it may have caused my scoliosis in my mid-teens. I obviously can't prove that but there are a few online scientific articles that make a link, both in humans and in birds and fish which have been exposed to mercury. Other than the scoliosis, the worst permanent damage has been complete loss of bladder and bowel function, requiring self-catheterisation and manual evacuation, as well as a permanent low-dose antibiotic and senna tablets.

I also have frequent episodes of excruciating nerve pain in my right leg, in which the muscles are withered and much of the leg and foot numb and weak.

I had many years of dizziness, loss of balance and chronic fatigue, muscle cramps and flutterings and jerking limbs, insomnia, constant gastric upset, random infections and allergic reactions, poor circulation and the very early signs of dementia. This all gradually occurred over a period of 13 years and, by the time I started on the B12, I felt close to death and in constant pain and distress.

The B12 and folic acid was like a miracle. I began to improve within hours, feeling more alert and aware of what was going on around me. I had no pain from that first night for the first time in months and both my energy levels and balance began to improve and I stopped stumbling and banging into furniture. I could also stand long enough to make a family meal.

I lost most of my children's childhood and, for that, I am very bitter. However, I have brilliant doctors who let me have the B12 despite not having any of the haematological signs of a deficiency. Even when it soon became clear that I couldn't stop the loading dose level of 3 jabs a week, they allowed me to have them and showed me how to self-inject. I will always be so grateful to them because it kept me alive, and with a much improved quality of life, long enough to discover what the problem actually is. I doubt I'll ever recover the nerve damage due to the length of time it has been there but at least I'll know I have given it the very best chance possible.

Both my children have a small number of these fillings and I am afraid for them but, of course, being young they are completely unconcerned and just think their Mum is making a fuss about nothing. I didn't have any symptoms when I was their age either (apart from the scoliosis) so I suppose I understand a bit.



I will certainly let you know how I get one with the treatment. If this is my problem, then there must be quite a few others out there with the same problem and, in fact, quite a lot of those with scoliosis go on to have the very same symptoms as me when they get into their forties. I did actually mention my experiences on a scoliosis forum and got a very hostile reception from a few of them. However, maybe someone will give it some thought and at least consider it as a possible cause of their symptoms.

Andrea

I can't comment on mercury except to say that while I had - who knows? - maybe 8 such fillings removed, I never got any of the above symptoms - however maybe I did not get the fillings at a critical age...you know - like a growth period? (I am short -- never hit that growth period!). I had no chelation. I would not go through a dangerous process like that unless I was sure I needed to. You know chelation takes out ALL your minerals -- good and bad. I am sure it would seriously mess up my blood pressure - which I have such a hard time keeping stable since I have 3 genetic defects which cause it. I am not sureI'd undergo chelation even IF I was problem to have mercury because high b.p. could kill me. My removal of mercury fillings was uneventful -- I would take chlorella if you choose to do it and I would find a dentist who will hook up something to suck out fumes and dust (it's just a vacuum cleaner hose - nothing fancy). The key is to get a dentist you can trust and then sit back and trust.
Mad