Active B12 Basics

[tealady7]

danger with 5_MTHFR racemic, releases on later taking folate!!! (even though none detected before taking folate, one week break!)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/sj.bjp.0705446/pdf


OK, I think metafolin (the patented one) is only the S type(ie the one your body is supposed to have ONLY). So it looks like I was wrong and the solgar metafolin may be the "S" type only, which would mean it was OK..and that would mean that Freddd effects from folate would not have been caused by this, sorry everyone! that anxiety again!!!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.00492.x/full

Howvere the type I have taken on occasion is Thorne research and it is racemic..so I'm going to stop taking it.
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research...aps/18447?at=0
On further reading I'm not going to take folinic acid ever again either, its racemic as well as I cant find out where the conversion to S and R is and what converts, maybe not known as yet!. Also it is not , except in the variant (T/T)that doesnt work as effectively? apparently natural for us?
"The assessment of RBC folate vitamer distribution demonstrated that the folate contained in RBCs from individuals carrying the C/C genotype is comprised entirely of 5-methylTHFs, whereas the RBC folate from individuals with the homozygous mutant T/T genotype consists of 30% formylated THF polyglutamates, confirming what we have described (27). Furthermore, the profile of folate coenzymes within the cell of T/T individuals bears a close relationship with peripheral blood mononuclear cell DNA methylation as shown in Fig. ​Fig.3:3: a regression analysis within the T/T group revealed an inverse relationship between the proportion of formyl-THF and DNA methylation (P < 0.03), as well as a positive association between DNA methylation and methyl-THF proportions (P < 0.03). "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC122817/


Note even though the folate (or folic acid) is also racemix , your body apparently only makes the proper type of the 5_MTHFR , so this doesnt happen! So folate (folic acid is farly safe?)

So now I've completely confused everyone including myself, I'd better stop posting!
Thanks every9ne for reading, and I wish you all well in trying to work this all out.
Jan (tealady)
http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/sho...d.php?t=101202
http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/sho...d.php?t=101210
needs help with above

[tealady7]

hmm the Metafolin is not racemic it seems , so it is OK?

BUT the folinic acid (depending on the brand I guess) is possibly racemic, and that also is bad as it seems to convert to that wrong type
Biomodulation of 5-Fu cytotoxicity by folinic acid and its stereoisomers: in vitro experiments with different cell lines of prostatic cancer.

Breul J, Jakse G, Hartung R.
Source

Urologische Klinik und Poliklinik, Klinikum rechts der Isar, Technische Universität München, Germany.

Abstract

The results of cytotoxic chemotherapy for advanced, hormone-escaped prostate cancer have been disappointing. Evaluation of the effect of new drugs or new combinations with already known ones is required. The antimetabolite 5-fluorouracil (5-FU) has been shown to be active in prostate cancer, acting via inhibition of thymidylate synthase, an essential enzyme in DNA de novo synthesis. Experiments with cell lines of different tumors have shown that 5-FU activity can be modulated by addition of the coenzyme tetrahydrofolic acid (folinic acid). We investigated the effect of folinic acid and its stereoisomers on 5-FU action in different cell lines of prostate cancer. It was found that addition of non-toxic folinic acid led to a two- to fourfold better antiproliferative effect of 5-FU. The unnatural 6R isomer, which is a compound of chemically synthesized folinic acid, inhibited the modulatory effect of the natural 6S isomer. Our results indicated that a combination of folinic acid and 5-FU may result in a better response of patients with hormone-resistant prostate cancer than of patients treated with 5-FU alone.

PMID:7483142[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
the right tyope is 6S, wrong type is 6R. Wrong typoe will inhibit(block) the right type..and this is the same wrong type that taking folate brings back as its stored apparently in the liver and is flushed into blood when you take folate, even if you havent taken it for a week and noe is showing in your blood. This is just my understanding from skimming thru google scholar, but it seems to fit. Maybe it sht folinic acid that Freddd took that was racemic and is casuing the problems with folate?
The opther study that shows liver stairage I posted somewhere? sorry

[Freddd]

Hi Tealady7,

I will answer this over on the main b12 thread to keep this one short for easy finding of the basic information and hep you find the other posts you made. They are placed back in date to when you originally submitted them after going through the moderator.
http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/sho...d=1#post292864

[Unregistered]

Ive read your posts on wrong diagnosis front to back and on this forum as well. I am hoping you can tell me - what brand name where you bought it and how you take it so I can try that first rather than experiment with others that may not work. Thank you Joshua in Seattle 34y

METHYLB12 STARTUP EFFECTS
version 1.0 - 07/19/09


There are many ideas about what causes the startup effects of methylb12 and some of the other supplements we use in the active b12 protocol. Some may apply specifically to those who have been diagnosed with CFS/FMS or may be more general. As most experimenting with treatments haven't tried a lot of variations there is little mention of how order dependent the startup effects are. Some of the items may appear mutually contradictory. Perhaps there are multiple things going on. Many have offered their ideas about it. I'm trying to summarize here both what I have personally experienced and/or observed and that which others have suggested.

Many of these things are order dependent or cofactor dependent. So, methylb12 can cause a significant startup effect of an energetic nature; enough to scare the sox off of some especially when taken as a fearfull thing. So can TMG, methylfolate and SAM-e. In fact, this is order dependent. If one takes hydroxyb12 and/or cyanob12 for a period of time and then starts any of these things the startup effects are amplified. The first of this group of 4 methylators that is started has the biggest startup effect. The fourth one has very little "methylation" startup effect if any. This hypothesis can be deliberately tested and is accidently tested frequently. The roughest startups I have seen are in those on cyanob12 for years switching to methylb12. In that instance you have a very depleted methylation capacity changing to mb12 which increases methylation capacity. So you have at least four kinds of startup effects of starting methylb12.

1. Increase in methylation capacity, large "energized feeling", not due to thyroid.
2. Increased intensity of sensation and symptoms and brightening of the senses as the nervous system starts working better and transmission speed increases; large "energized feeling", not due to thyroid.
3. Mitochondrial startup - In CFS/FMS where abnormal fatigue and/or burning muscle pain exists lactic acid is produced in anorobic metabolism, a sudden increase of 6 times as much energy production occurs as adenosylb12 (converted from mb12) floods back into the mitochondria converting back to oxidation metabolism; large "energized feeling", not due to thyroid.
4. Functional biochemical reactions start suddenly producing suddenly shifting symptoms.
5. When neuropsychiatric healing starts moods and personality can start changing dramatically and suddenly and continue for several months. Functional changes happen immediately, healing takes longer.
6. Hypothetical detox reaction
7. Hypothetical bacterial and viral dieoff as immune systyem starts funtioning properly.
8. Hypothetical thyroid reaction often attributed to cause of energetic reactions and changes. As these changes occur faster than T3 and T4 changes occur or can be measured as changing this is questionable. People who try to adjust thyroid hormone doses usually end up making things worse and going back to original dose and being puzzled by the changes not working in expected fashion. When T3 and T4 are measured, usually no significant changes have occurred and maintained.

To minimize startup effects, start with adnosylb12. This turns on the mitochondria before the nervous system. There is some nervous system startup due to limited mb12 conversion and due to neuronal mitochondria startup, but only a fraction of what occurs with methylb12. There is no large amount of unbound mb12 which produces large rapid changes. Then add TMG, the gentlest of the methylators. Then add SAM-e, then methylfolate and finally methylb12. By the time the mb12 is added, only those effects due purely to the mb12 itself will occur without the mitochondrial startup and the methylation reaction. After that add the l-carntine to finish the mitochondrial startup. Methylfolate and SAM-e can both give very strong startup reactions if they are the first methylator aboard. L-carnitine can have a strong startup effect if it has been lacking, boosting energy output and endurance.

Some people find glutathione or glutathione promoting substances to be benficial. Generally these are people who have been taking it along with hydroxyb12, a non active cobalamin that does not flood the system with unbound active b12s. Those who have been taking active b12s and who have become used to a high level of unbound active b12s find themselves being plunged suddenly back into b12 deficiency states induced by glutathione and glutathione promoting supplements such as NAC/[COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]Glutamine[/COLOR][/COLOR] but not limited to that specific pair or infused glutathione. This appears hightly dependent upon the actual form of b12s being taken. Those taking glutathione or promotors who change to active b12s don't have a noticable reaction but do not have the anticipated effects of active b12s. The glutathione appears to block the effects of having unbound active coblamins in the system, most specifically methylb12. The effect is only noticable when the effectiveness of methylb12 is suddenly turned off.

[mogy73]

Hi,
The first 13 posts of this thread are the important ones for those with B12 deficiency.

[riantalknow]

Actually, another concern about deficiency in Vitamins b1 b6 and b12 is that you are most likely to get peripheral neuropathy. These vitamins are good for nerve repairs.

[suga18567]

Thanks for sharing the info. Very Useful.

[craftyk]

Hi everyone,
I am hoping to find some answers on this board.... I was recently diagnosed with MTHFR (compound heterozygous) about two months ago, by a naturopath, while trying to conceive a 3rd child. She put me on an extensive regimen of supplements, including Deplin (7.5mg), along with a Thorne B complex, Thorne prenatals, and others... About two months in, I began experiencing peripheral neuropathy, which progressed and included severe pain in my upper back. The naturopath claims she has never had a patient react this way to the protocol she prescribed. My family doc examined me at the 3 mo. mark and noticed I had "banding" in my fascia in both my arms and legs. I suspect I either have a B6 overload (at one point, I added up that I was taking over 260 mg. of B6 in all the supplements combined) , or am low on B12 (I am wondering if my body had way too much methylfolate, in proportion to B12, and it used up my stores of B12).... I had my serum B12 drawn, and it came back at 800... I just had the doc test my holotc, my intrinsic factor ab (I have Hashimoto's, so I think this may be correlated), and my iron... I am awaiting results. I think I remember reading that one could have a high serum B12, but not enough active B12 in their system. Please let me know any thoughts you may have.... Also important to note is that I went off ALL supplements for a week, and the neuropathy stopped... Another recent symptom I have noticed (in recent days) is a pain that comes and goes in my abdomen (worried I have a hernia, or something).

I would appreciate any input!!! Thanks so much in advance....

[Lethal Lee]

danger with 5_MTHFR racemic, releases on later taking folate!!!
(even though none detected before taking folate, one week break!)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/sj.bjp.0705446/pdf

OK, I think metafolin (the patented one) is only the S type (ie the one your body is supposed to have ONLY).
So it looks like I was wrong and the solgar metafolin may be the "S" type only, which would mean it was OK..and that would mean that Freddd effects from folate would not have been caused by this, sorry everyone! that anxiety again!!!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.00492.x/full

However the type I have taken on occasion is Thorne research and it is racemic..so I'm going to stop taking it.
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research...aps/18447?at=0

On further reading I'm not going to take folinic acid ever again either, its racemic as well as I cant find out where the conversion to S and R is and what converts, maybe not known as yet!. Also it is not , except in the variant (T/T) that doesnt work as effectively? apparently natural for us?
"The assessment of RBC folate vitamer distribution demonstrated that the folate contained in RBCs from individuals carrying the C/C genotype is comprised entirely of 5-methylTHFs, whereas the RBC folate from individuals with the homozygous mutant T/T genotype consists of 30% formylated THF polyglutamates, confirming what we have described (27). Furthermore, the profile of folate coenzymes within the cell of T/T individuals bears a close relationship with peripheral blood mononuclear cell DNA methylation as shown in Fig. ​Fig.3:3: a regression analysis within the T/T group revealed an inverse relationship between the proportion of formyl-THF and DNA methylation (P < 0.03), as well as a positive association between DNA methylation and methyl-THF proportions (P < 0.03). "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC122817/

Note even though the folate (or folic acid) is also racemix , your body apparently only makes the proper type of the 5_MTHFR , so this doesnt happen! So folate (folic acid is farly safe?)

So now I've completely confused everyone including myself, I'd better stop posting!
Thanks every9ne for reading, and I wish you all well in trying to work this all out.
Jan (tealady)
http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/sho...d.php?t=101202
http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/sho...d.php?t=101210
needs help with above

Forgive me if this has been mentioned since the above post but I wanted to clarify that Thorne Research 5-MTHF is most definitely NOT racaemic nor a racaemic mix.

Here is Thorne's product link....
http://www.thorne.com/Products/Neurological-Support/prd~B129.jsp
Click on ingredients & you will see the product contains

Gnosis S.p.A.'s L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate (Extrafolate-S®).
Extrafolate-S is a registered trademark of Gnosis S.p.A

From Gnosis website...
http://www.gnosis-bio.com/extrafolates.php

Extrafolate-S^TM is the calcium salt of (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid.

So as you can see Extrafolate -S is the (6,S) 5- MTHF form & not the (6R,S) 5-MTHF form.

In fact BOTH Metafolin & Extrafolate seem to be identical forms ....(Calcium Salt of (6,S) 5-MTHF)
http://www.metafolin.com/about-metafolin